---------- DOCUMENT HEADER ----------
---------- DOCUMENT HEADER ----------
ARIZONA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Forty-seventh Legislature – Second Regular Session
PERFORMANCE AND WASTE
Minutes of Meeting
House Hearing Room 5 -- 3:00 p.m.
Chairman Allen called the meeting to order at 3:08 p.m. and attendance was noted by the secretary.
|
Mr. Brown |
Mr. Paton |
|
|
Mr. Gallardo |
Mr. Allen, Chairman |
|
|
Mr. Murphy |
|
|
|
Mrs. Groe |
|
|
Roger Barnett, representing self
Kim Sheane, Majority Staff Policy Adviser
Ron Hager, Sheriff’s Office, Cochise County
Major General David Rataczak, Department of Emergency and Military Affairs
Frank Navarette, Director, Office of Homeland Security
Opening Remarks
Chairman Allen said the Committee was commissioned to look into several vital areas within the next few weeks. He introduced House staff members.
Chairman Allen said the goal of the Committee is to review the relationship the Legislature and the Governor have had for three years on several issues in a much more macro sense than when dealing with bills. He said today the Committee would look at the National Guard issue and the emergency at the border. He said the Committee would hear from a select group of people and ask questions of people who are affecting policies. The Committee will then come up with recommendations and set forth letters to the people who come before the Committee on suggestions that would be useful in resolving issues more quickly between agencies, the Governor and the Legislature. He said today the Committee would hear testimony as to where we are right now on some of the border issues.
Roger Barnett, representing self, said he is a businessman in Cochise County and owns a 22,000-acre ranch on the border. He distributed a collection of photos for Committee members to view. Mr. Barnett said illegal aliens began going through his place in about 1996-1997. He said he could stand on a mountaintop and see groups of 20, 30, or 40 people. He said when he and other ranchers see illegal aliens, they call the Border Patrol or sometimes the Sheriff’s Office. He said when the groups go through the ranch, they leave gates open, tear down fences, scare the cows, leave water faucets running, and leave trash. One canyon has 300-400 backpacks, and dirty clothes, and when it rains, the soil is contaminated. Mr. Barnett said he has learned to look for drugs and he sometimes finds drugs on his ranch.
Mr. Barnett said he spent a lot of money to install about 25 seismic sensors on the ground that let him know when someone walks or drives by. Mr. Barnett said that within the last eight years, he, his wife, and his brother, have on Fridays evenings, Saturdays and part of Sundays, turned in to the Border Patrol over 12,000 aliens who were on his and/or his neighbors’ property.
Mr. Barnett said several years ago the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) told him, on four different occasions that word was out in Mexico that “they” were going to come up and kidnap or kill him and others because he and others have been so successful in disrupting ‘their’ operation.”
He said he thinks the National Guard should not just be at border entries.
Mr. Allen asked if one National Guard member in his area would help, and Mr. Barnett responded yes.
Mr. Allen asked if Mr. Barnett feels safe in his home at night. Mr. Barnett replied yes. He said “they” do not usually come around at night.
Mr. Allen read a portion of the Governor’s Declaration of Emergency as follows: “immigration has its most profound effect on the Arizona border counties of Cochise, Pima, Santa Cruz and Yuma where hundreds of immigrants have died, violent criminal activity has increased and repeated trespasses to real property have damaged vegetation, wildlife and livestock,” and asked Mr. Barnett if this was an accurate picture of what is happening in his area.
Mr. Barnett replied “partly.” He said it does not go far enough.
Mr. Paton asked how much this problem on his ranch had cost. Mr. Barnett replied he does not know how to put a cost on the labor for repair, and estimated $100,000 minimum.
Mr. Paton asked in reference to a photo Mr. Barnett showed the Committee, if the body of a dead woman had been found on his ranch, and Mr. Barnett replied yes.
In response to query from Mr. Brown as to what percentage of his 22,000 acres is patented, state, leased, and/or federal, Mr. Barnett said 4,400 acres is patented, 13,000 is state, and none is federal, and he leases approximately 3,000-patented acres and 1,500 state acres.
Mr. Allen asked if $100,000 is a lot of money to him, and Mr. Barnett replied it is.
Mr. Murphy asked if Mr. Barnett thinks the state should help him out.
Mr. Barnett said if the federal government will not help out, then the state should, and if not the state, then the county, and if not the county, then maybe he should start getting his own people.
Kim Sheane, Majority Staff Policy Adviser, read excerpts of testimony by Cochise County residents before members of Congress (Attachment 1).
Mr. Allen noted the testimony read into the record was taken in 1999 and 2002.
In response to query from Mr. Gallardo, Mr. Allen said the topic of today’s meeting would be immigration and the national guard, and border patrol issues.
Ron Hager, Sheriff’s Office, Cochise County, said is he involved in jail related issues, and he is Chairman, Certified Jail Manager Commission of the American Jail Association. Mr. Hager said he has lived in Cochise County for the past twelve years and he sees the problem of illegal immigration every day.
Mr. Hager said the Cochise County jail was built in 1985, designed for about 160 inmates, and today’s population is 205 inmates. He said about 25 Mexican nationals are currently incarcerated in the jail. He said last year Cochise County jail detained almost 330 undocumented aliens at a cost of about $500,000 to the residents of Cochise County. Mr. Hager explained a federal program, State Criminal Alien Assistance Program (SCAAP), reimburses about one-fifth of the actual cost of incarcerating aliens. He said Cochise County has asked for an increase in reimbursement but has not received an increase. When 30-40 Mexican nationals are detained by border patrol officials, they need to be held in a facility and Cochise County has only one detention facility. The border patrol must then decide whether to hold them, take them to the border for release, or drive them to Tucson where there are federal facilities.
Mr. Hager explained there is a program called Federal Deferral, which means if a person is found to be going through a port of entry with drugs in their vehicle, the federal government can elect not to prosecute that person, and defer the prosecution to local authorities. That means the nationals would be held in the Cochise County jail, not eligible for release because most have a border patrol detain, and when they are released, they must be brought back into the court system so they can be tried and adjudicated on charges.
Mr. Hager said there must be detention facilities and stressed that necessary resources must be provided to increase the Cochise County jail capacity.
Mr. Allen asked if the Governor’s original emergency, “where hundreds of immigrants have died, violent criminal activity has increased and repeated trespasses to real property have damaged vegetation, wildlife and livestock” was an accurate picture of what is going on down there.
Mr. Hager replied that is a fair assessment in the context of trying to protect the citizens of Cochise County.
In response to query from Mr. Allen, Mr. Hager said those people in Cochise County whose lives have been interrupted would agree with the Governor that there is some form of emergency and something needs to be done by somebody.
Mr. Murphy asked if, since the Governor’s Proclamation of Emergency approximately six months ago, Mr. Hager had seen a substantive difference in support received from either the federal or state government.
Mr. Hager replied yes. He said he could now pay overtime to detention officers who work in the jail, and they have extra deputies. In addition, one thousand additional border patrol agents have added a significant presence in Cochise County. The Minute Man Project had an impact when they were present, whether you agreed with them or not. The numbers of people apprehended are declining.
In response to query from Mr. Murphy, Mr. Hager said Cochise County looked at a plan to provide a 240-bed addition to a planned facility, for the specific purpose of detention of illegal immigrants. Mr. Hager said there are never 240 illegal aliens in their facility at one time. However, they plan for future capacity needs, and know with the flexibility involved, beds could be sold to the federal government for other types of detention, i.e., people from other states who have committed crimes. Out of the 240 beds, they plan to use 125 for illegals. He said the cost would be approximately $3,954,220, and annual operating costs would be about $4.5 million.
Mr. Allen asked Mr. Hager to name an interdiction activity that increased because of the emergency, and asked if there are additional people to help with the Sheriff’s work.
Mr. Hager replied the Sheriff responds to all issues, so having additional agents in Cochise County has cut down on the response time from the federal border patrol to assist. He said Department of Public Safety personnel have not increased.
Mr. Allen said if when people are arrested with minors, do they tend to be released quicker or do they end up with CPS (Child Protection Services) issues.
Mr. Hager replied it is just like a medical emergency, when problems associated with illegal immigration include minors, the question is can CPS find placement. The Mexican Consulate then becomes involved. He said these are complex issues that are hard to deal with.
Major General David Rataczak, Department of Emergency and Military Affairs, said he is also the Adjutant General for the State of Arizona.
Mr. Paton asked how many guardsmen were assigned to the border before the Governor declared an emergency.
Major General Rataczak said the number varies from day to day based on the mission requirement of the law enforcement agencies. He said there is a Joint Counter Narco-Terrorism Task Force (Task Force), which means anywhere from 150 to 200 fulltime personnel work with approximately 100 law enforcement agencies in the state working drug related operations. He said the Task Force does missions and all the money is provided by the federal government.
Mr. Allen asked if that is the same number as before the emergency, and when the Governor in her letter to Donald Rumsfeld “describes the 174 national guard troops stationed on the border involved in law enforcement and first responders,” she is talking about “that” 174 who are basically on their two week rotation of their national guard service.
Major General Rataczak responded the answer to the first question is “yes, she is referring to “those people.” The answer to the second question is no, these people are on full time duty 365 days a year. He said they have been doing this mission under the Task Force since 1988. He said the Task Force is made up of volunteers from both the Army National Guard and the Air National Guard.
Major General Rataczak distributed information that addresses Innovative Readiness Training Program (IRT) activities and the Task Force (Attachment 2).
In response to query from Mr. Allen, Major General Rataczak said the troops always act in support of another agency. They do not apprehend people. However, the National Guard does recognizance and uses thermal imaging systems.
In response to query from Mr. Paton, Major General Rataczak said today, assigned to Arizona, there are over 4,700 Army National Guard soldiers, and about 2,700 Air National Guard soldiers;
260 are deployed to Iraq, 230 have been alerted, and the remainder is in the state.
Mr. Paton asked if the light infantry could play a role in securing the border.
Major General Rataczak responded, conceivably yes. However, there are second and third order effects of going to the border depending on what do we want them to do.
· Do we want them to be light infantry;
· lock-on with M-16s, which might make the Sheriff’s Office and ranchers happy but could create other issues;
· what are the rules of engagement;
· when you provide that massive armed presence, if people see this and start shooting, what does the National Guard do;
· it would put the Guard in significant serious situations to ask a young lieutenant or captain to make a decision in the dark of the night.
Mr. Allen asked if guardsmen are not doing these activities in other countries, such as Iraq.
Major General Rataczak replied Arizona guardsmen have not done specific border security, but have done military police, which is the closest thing to noncombat forces.
Mr. Allen said the National Guard, when deployed in other countries, does have a history of serving in the capacity of protecting a border or doing perimeter work where they are interacting with civilians and threatening types of individuals. He said somewhere there must be protocol to come up with the correct rules of engagement if the Guard were asked to go to the border.
Major General Rataczak said ultimately with a lot of discussion and rulemaking, it could be possible. He said the difference between Iraq and the insurgents in Mexico is that we are not at war with Mexico – they are our neighbors and friends. He said they would need to start at a State Department level. He said the next question he would have is what is the mission, and do we really want them to do that, and for how long.
Mr. Allen said there are borders in Iraq we are not at war with which the United States is helping guard, and asked if we wanted to do this as a state, could it not be worked out.
Major General Rataczak said these are policy decisions that the Governor’s Office would have to make. The National Guard goes where the Governor, as Commander in Chief, asks them to go. He stressed the National Guard always supports someone else.
Mr. Gallardo asked if there are any reservists currently on the border in the role of border security. Major General Rataczak said there are no Arizona National Guardsmen doing apprehension on the Mexican or Canadian borders.
Mr. Murphy asked if there were to be a deployment of National Guard to the Mexican border, what number of 6,500 would be available and what funding would be needed. Major General Rataczak replied the Governor could ask for volunteers, or a unit could be alerted. It is difficult to define a number, but they could probably get 200 volunteers. He said costs include $130 per day per soldier, which does not take into consideration lodging and food.
Major General Rataczak stated the Governor is working on mission steps that the National Guard does and ways the Guard can assist in the border issue.
Mr. Gallardo commented everyone is aware that there is a problem on the border in southern Arizona, and there are many questions, including costs, which must be answered before the Committee moves forward with a recommendation.
Frank Navarette, Director,
Office of Homeland Security, distributed a spreadsheet that speaks to the Governor’s
Emergency Declaration, and how money is distributed to counties
(Attachment 3).
Chairman Allen asked Mr. Navarette to describe his duties as Director of Homeland Security.
Mr. Navarette said he is in a cabinet position, wherein he reports directly to the Governor. The organization is strategic, and not tactical. The tactical issues are left to subject-matter experts, i.e., law enforcement community, National Guard, fire, health, etc. He said he works closely with the intelligence community in Arizona, doing threat and vulnerability assessments of our critical assets throughout the state.
Mr. Allen distributed a sheet that shows expenses the Governor has incurred with emergency funds (Attachment 4). He said it seems that the majority of funds have gone toward intervention activities and not prevention activities.
Kim Sheane, Majority Staff Policy Adviser, explained intervention was based on the project name and the comment and the extent those activities were occurring once illegal immigrants were in the country, as opposed to prevention, stopping them from entering the country (Attachment 4).
Mr. Navarette said under that definition, Chairman Allen is correct. He said the intent of the emergency declaration was not for interdiction, but to help the locals with social costs incurred, as well as local law enforcement.
Mr. Allen said the expenditures are dealing with the product of the activities, but not going toward the cause of the activities.
Mr. Navarette said interdiction is clearly the border patrol’s job. Cochise County incurs a significant amount of costs associated with the criminal activity. For example, the Cochise County Sheriff’s Office requested $200,000 for UDA (undocumented alien) incarceration overtime. To date they have requested reimbursement for $110,000 of spent money and have received $83,000 to pay for overtime. The City of Bisbee requested $24,000 for medical treatment transportation overtime, and has received $8,000. The Tohono O’odham Reservation last year spent $100,000 for autopsies of immigrants and they have been reimbursed.
Mr. Allen said when the Governor declared an emergency, he assumed she meant she wanted to have a greater presence of Arizona’s assets going toward stopping crossings at the border. He said he was concerned that it has taken so long to find places to spend this money that perhaps helps ranchers.
Mr. Navarette said they are prepared to do that. They want the locals to determine their needs and projects.
Discussion ensued as to a $50,681.25 expenditure for Overtime & Equipment for one month for Minute Men (Page 1, Attachment 4).
Mr. Navarette said he was unaware of the source of Attachment 4. He said he does have current information he can provide to the Committee that breaks down exactly what is covered under the emergency declaration, what has been requested, and what has been spent to date (Attachment 5).
Mr. Gallardo noted Attachment 4 was not issued by a State agency and questioned the source of the document and whether it is accurate.
Mr. Allen said he would get back to Mr. Gallardo regarding the source of information contained in Attachment 4.
Mr. Murphy asked what is the total funding that can be directed toward securing the border, under the declaration.
Mr. Navarette replied under the declaration a $.5 million match 75/25, added $200,000 of Homeland Security money that was a non-match. He estimated $60 million, which includes various types of technology and equipment, has been spent since 2003.
Mr. Gallardo said the question should be if there has been an analysis of what the dollar amount would be to secure the border.
Mr. Allen questioned how much money has been spent to secure the border, and repel people from coming across.
Mr. Allen asked if Mr. Navarette believes we would be better off sending the Guard “down there” no matter who pays for it.
Mr. Navarette replied the Guard is already down there. He said additional presence along the border to relieve border patrol people so they can perform their functions would probably be an asset. He said negotiations are ongoing with the Governor and Secretary of State Rumsfield to get Title 32 funding.
Mr. Allen said even if the federal government does not pay, and the State pays, would not the State be better off for that activity.
Mr. Navarette said it depends on what activities the Guards are assigned. He said it is not the function of the National Guard to perform border patrol activities.
Mr. Allen said if the Governor said she was going to send them, she must have a purpose for them.
Mr. Navarette said essentially the intention is to replace border patrol agents who are doing non-enforcement jobs, i.e., monitoring television, surveillance, which would release border patrol agents to have more presence on the border.
Chairman Allen said that is not what he thinks the Governor led the Legislature to believe when she said “send the troops to the border.” Mr. Allen said he thinks the Governor was implying that they would be in much more of a prevention mode. Mr. Allen said he just wants to make it possible for her to do that whether the federal government pays for it or not. He said he understands from Mr. Navarette’s testimony that would be a good thing.
Mr. Navarette said he would try to answer questions in the order he heard them:
Mr. Gallardo said we know there is a problem and want to spend the tax dollars, but need to address the issue cautiously.
Mr. Allen said he really did believe the Governor was saying there would be a greater presence of military personnel on the border. He said he believes that would be a great deterrent. He said he wants it to be clear that “we want change.” He said the Legislature wants to the make the best use of assets to protect the citizenry. He said if we can make it better, perhaps we should.
Without objection, the meeting adjourned at 5:08 p.m.
_______________________________
Yvette O’Connor, Committee Secretary
February 23, 2006
(Original minutes, attachments and tape are on file in the Office of the Chief Clerk.)
---------- DOCUMENT FOOTER ---------
HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT
OPERATIONS, PERFORMANCE AND WASTE
2
February 23, 2006
---------- DOCUMENT FOOTER ---------